Sigh.

From what I understand about Japanese manga publishing, the creator keeps the rights to their work. The company makes other deals for the creators (merch, anime, translation, etc.), but the creators have final veto power over things. When we were at AP, we wanted to publish Ebifly's work, and his publisher, Fujimi, was all for it (since we'd already done Vanity Angel from them), but Ebifly didn't want to be published in America and vetoed the deal. Then there was the classic case where Rumiko Takahashi didn't like the way the Ranma anime was going for a while there, so she put her foot down and they had to change a bunch of stuff mid-stream.

However, the Japanese companies will pressure the creators to pad out a popular work to make it run longer (which is how you get things like Dragonball Z) or, in order to shame lazy creators who miss their deadlines, run pages that aren't finished. (Happened to the guy who did Bastard!- he fucked off and didn't finish his pages and had kind of a "what're you gonna do about it?!" attitude about it, so the editor ran them as is. It was pretty grim.)

As a guy who has, in the past, tried to motivate artists to work for him, and has often come up against artists who talk a good game but never produce pages - that last bit makes me laugh like a fiend.

Like said up above, in Japan it's a lot different. Creators can have as little or as much say in a lot of what is done with their work as they seem to want-- even up to choices for voice casting if an anime or cd drama is made from their work.

Daisuke Moriyama, for one, chose not to have much of a hand in the animation of 'Chrono Crusade'-- he could have cast the voices to his liking, as well, but he said he much preferred to see different people's interpretations of his work (which seems to be a running thing for him, in what we've discussed). Regardless of whether he liked the result or not, he found it interesting and also something of a reflection on his own work. /tangent

In America, though, it seems a lot different... Being that I'm just now getting into the whole 'professional' thing, the more research I do now, the better.

Thanks for the link to the discussion.

That comment from Rob Valois, a TP editor, to Heidi about the default in major publishing creators have 100% ownership.

"But are Simon and Random House really producing OEL manga? And how many new OGN series are they actually putting into the market place each year -- of those, how many of them are by first time creators? "

Ok, please, does it mater if it drawn or written? A 'creation' is a creation no matter how you look at it. So is he saying that artists don't deserve the same perks as authors do? I don't see his argument even hold water.

Frankly, and I hate to say this publically, I really dislike Tokyopop. From every experience I have had with them, I don't like them. From the representatives they sent to SCAD (and how they spoke to and treated my friends) to their translators and unprofessional work in editing to a number of other things... I have been continually disappointed.

Also, and I hate to say this too, I think a lot of the 'winners' of the Rising Star manga competitions could have been better chosen-- otherwise I'm very disappointed in the competition.

Deals

footyfoot and I sold a manga series to Tpop a year ago (after a year of haggling and modifying and chamging things to suit them, I might add). The contract they offered us was unsignable due to their ownership requirements, low rate of compensation, and of course the notorious licensing caps. ("If we sell your story to a film studio and the movie is budgeted at $20M+, you get a flat $250K -- and nothing else." Eff that!) On advice from legal counsel we modified the contract to remove these aspects and sent it back to them. They rejected our compromise offer, and the deal fell through.

I regret nothing.

In America, the comics (or manga) creator is a hired hand; the publisher typically owns part or all of the creative work, including the right to profit from derivative works (movies, TV, animation, Underoos, etc.)

This is why in America the publishers of popular comics tend to get rich and the creators tend to stay poor. Yes, some creators manage to hang on to their properties (e.g. the Mutant Turtle guys, Vasquez, etc.), but those who end up working at Dairy Queen while BigBux Comics rakes in the mad money are far more common. We can all cite examples: Dan DeCarlo, anyone? Siegel and Schuster? The list goes on and on.

In Japan, by contrast, the manga creator is an author, and as such generally retains full ownership of his/her creative property; the publisher merely prints, markets, and distributes it, paying the creator for the privilege, both in the form of direct compensation (page rate) and share (of merchandising, movie rights, etc.) In other words, it's the same deal the author of a work of prose fiction gets.

This is why in Japan the publishers of popular comics tend to get rich and the creators tend to be able to at least earn a decent living. Of course, some manga creators remain poor, but relatively few end up working at Ramen Hut while Shohnen BigguBucksu rakes in the mad yen. Creators of successful manga can in fact become super-wealthy. We can all cite examples: Rumiko Takahashi, anyone? Clamp? Toriyama?

Moral: before signing a publishing contract with a U.S. manga publisher, American manga creators should do two things:

1. Have the contract examined by a licensed attorney at law.

2. Ask themselves the following: how many wealthy American comic book artists can I name?

(And people wonder why I concentrate on writing these days...)

Great post, Bob.

Re: Deals

I can't take credit for post like I should have. Thank goes to Elin Winkler for bringing this up on her LJ. ^_^

Oh, email me the proper steps to get that manuscript. I'll be home all day.

Well, I'm not sure about the "publishing world" as far as art goes, but for print and illustration the basic rundown is differnt for magazines and books. In magazines, you get a basic per-word or per-piece rate and then so much for each image (usually - not always).

The rough side here is that you are never sure how much of the cover price value is or can be credited to one's work. For example: Would readers pay $10 for a copy of NTUSA if I were the only writer? Do 10% of the readers even read the text I write or only look at the pictures? What percentage of the mag's cover price is even profit? Is my work of any real value for a mag by adding readers or am I just filler? How much is filler worth?

In books it's a bit easier as all of it comes from you, but still, there has to be some credit for the publisher. While I might only get a standard 20% of sales after expenses, the publisher has almost as much time invested in the book as I do doing things like market research, editing, formatting, promoting, etc.

Plus, I don't have to come up with half of the up-front cash for publishing like printing and distribution.

Then there are more intangible considerations . . . how many people are reading my book in part becasue they trust the name the publisher has spent a lot of time and money building? How many people would not have read it if I self published it?

If they can sell 10,000 copies and give me 20% ofthe profits with me putting up no up-front money could I do better and sell more than 2,000 copies by self-publishing and keep all of the profits for an equal amount having to do everything myself (including providing all the cash needed) with no established distribution channels?

I know this isn't exactly comparable to artists in whole, but then there are comparisons that I've found in art.

I know that you don't like this thought, but, all artists are not created equal just as all writers aren't. The ideal that all should charge the same rates for time spent on work is a bit skewed.

For example: If I have you do some art for me and it takes 20 hours and I'm very happy with it, does that mean any artists will only take 20 hours and make me equally as happy?

I've commissioned art for professional purposes and I can say that one artist may take twice as long as another and not come close to matching the quality of faster artist. If the slower artist really worth twice as much?

Honestly, I have no idea how you folks put all of this together and come up with something reasonable. I do know that you do though. Further, I have no idea other than on the end of the buyer (who is likely to want to pay as little as possible) how to rate one artist's value over another.

For my part, I'm always happy to pay whatever an artist charges though I do expect them to perform to meet that rate.

In the end I think everyone that works in the arts (writing, drawing, painting, music, photography, etc.) has to be very careful regarding what they do. You need to price yourself well and even be prepared to say, "no thank you" sometimes.

If you don't there will always be people willing to take advantage . . . history is littered with artists, writers and engineers that went broke creating many works that are famous today.

"How much is filler worth?"

'Bout a hundred bucks a page, judging by my last check from Newtype. Newtype has those oversized pages, though, so that may be higher than the average.

The big difference there being that I'm not creating any kinda new intellectual property there, I'm just talking trash about someone else's. The kids producing a new property for Tokyopop are creating something that could potentially exploited for much more money by whoever winds up owning it (in this case the publisher rather than the creator).

The fact of the matter, though, is that life is gonna be a bitch for creators in this situation until another publisher steps up to compete on a similar scale in the same endeavor. That's why the authors of novels and such (and comic creators in countries with viable industries, like Japan and Europe) get better deals and ownership of their work. Even in smaller niches like sci-fi or whatever, you've got multiple publishers to choose from (David Drake once told a funny story about a three-way bidding war for one of his novels, I think between Ace, Tor, and Baen).

Like Slegger Law says, sad, but that's war. Or comics. Or whatever.

DFS.

Europe

It depends on countries, of course. We're mainly talking France if we're looking for a healthy comics industry. But in general, the work-for hire copyright surrender that is standard in the US does not apply. If I remember my copyright law properly you actually cannot completely surrender your copyrights. Still it would depend on the publisher of course, and I'm way out of touch.

The more popular the medium, the harder it is to get 100% control of it. Coming from the side of the business I plan on entering, having 100% control of the first film I make is about as likely as getting a blowjob from Cameron Diaz the first time I meet her (actually maybe that would be possible...). No first-timer gets Final Cut of the film because you're treated like you don't know a goddamn thing, that is of course unless you go the independent route and your producers have faith in your vision. It would be great if Studio Capsule had the means to self-publish various things but obviously this isn't the case.

Personally TokyoPop, who I once found to be a very worthwhile company (say 2-3 years ago), are now a bunch of foolish fanboys locked up in their office. Where as they started off covering various markets (anime DVDs, video game soundtracks, some J-Pop, etc) while focusing on developing a worthwhile manga line via worthwhile titles, now they've gone and flooded the entire market with so much unknown garbage for the sake of the buck. Considering they lost the battle to acquiring popular titles such as Hellsing and Trigun (Dark Horse came out on top, they're trying to make up for big losses by going with losing manga. And if you notice, alot of their newest authors tend to be the younger upstarts who are more excited by the big deal with TokyoPop than they are the full rights to their material.

I don't know what to tell ya Bob. We've known each other for a good 5 years and there always seems to be these bullshit problems in the air. You've been in this industry long enough that you shouldn't have to deal with shitty offers from people like TokyoPop. It would be great to get out more Banzai Chibi-Chan but last time we chatted about that subject, the ownership rights were still somewhat complicated (perhaps they have smoothed out since?). You just gotta keep dealing with the bullshit until it all disappears and you wind up on top of things. You've never been one to quit things Bob and I don't expect you to ever quit chasing the dream.

musashi, you have a good synopsis of tokyopop there, one that I have to agree with. I have not seen one new series that I would buy from them, they're just capitalising on the "narutard" market, you know, the young people with too much disposable cash and nary a clue in their heads. God forbid if only they would learn a few tricks from DelRay :p
However, while their handling of OEL should be despised, no other company I can think of is bringing OEL's out such a decent volume, and after seeing the result of scott pilgrim i'm not surprised about any movie term deals like that. In time it shall improve, onwards with education!

It's rough, it sucks, but it's just a sad fact of the matter stateside. I actually looked ober 20 different publishing company guidelines/deals before I ever put page one of my comic online. I had, by that point, come to the simple conclusion that there was just now way that I could ever get my story out there otherwise and still be able to retain what was rightfully mine, or have a decent income to show for the amount of work I put in to it.

I lucked out when BT Studios picked me up, but that's not because I saw it as a fast-track for the comic being successful, but rather because I knew that the comic was mine, and at the very least they would take care of the odds and ends of the publishing and con merch gamut, finally leaving me free to simply focus on the contenst aspect. Now - let's be realistic here: do I honestly think my comic will ever become popular? Nope. Nor do I think it'll make me any large sums of money. You, on the other hand, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt have the skills and the know-how to make it, even in a system that categorically works against the artist.

It's just a tough haul. That's why I have 3 jobs ;).

My own publisher, at the moment, crafted a deal which gives most of the money back to them, part profit; part funding for the graphic novel coming out next year. Katy and I are perfectly happy with that, because even under that structure, we still made more at a con because of their help than we ever madeon our own. It's a trade off, and I know where that money is being used. I'm not preaching the small publisher route here, just illustrating that sometimes you will find something that can work out for the best.

Mac Hall, Ctrl Alt Del, and Applegeeks have proven that it can be done without need of the central mechanics of the print industry by releasing a book to their core fanbase and doing fantastically with it. There are always other avenues, man.

Never worry. You have the talent and the drive. You'll find that avenue, and cruise it with ease.

You forgot to mention MegaTokyo. Hate it, or love it (I'm of the former), that seems to be the webcomic alot of new webcomic artists are striving to be like.

Yes, the contract was indeed a shit sandwich. I can testify to it myself, having read it over and wondered what happened to the one they were *supposed* to have sent us. And that chick who was our 'editor' was about as bright as a sack full of doorknobs. Certainly, she couldn't spell or form a coherent thought via e-mail. The idea of being their slave for a pittance was pretty repellent...

That's a very interesting thread there. I'd always thought about one day getting my work published, but since I'd never been serious about it, I never really looked into how the business model works. Its seems to me, the more I read about TokyoPop's publishing, that I'm very glad I decided to go to college to become a teacher instead of entering an art school like my family assumed.

I wouldn't like it one bit if some publishing company was able to keep the rights to my work. The comic I'd always thought about (but probably won't ever) publish is something I've had total control over for 6 years now, and I'd like to be able to oversee everything if perhaps someone were to make an animated series from it. Actually, I would 100% preffer to oversee an animated version of my work, I'm obscenely picky with voice actors...But who knows if I can do that, I'm just a wistful 19 year-old training to be an old schoolmarm~

What's sort of amusing is how TP proudly talks about how they're a big swingin' dick in the Real Book Publishing World, then proceeds to act like a low-rent version of Innovation Comics (or pick your favorite skeezy comics publisher here) when it comes to dealing with creators.
Real publishers have these things called editors. One of the jobs they have is choosing which creators they will publish. These editor creatures, if they wish to keep their jobs, are supposed to choose creators who are talented and will sell well, and pass on the rest. The object here is to focus the resources of the publisher in an intelligent manner, and keep overhead costs to a minimum.
TP seems to have decided on the shotgun approach--publish damn near everything that comes over the transom as long as it's not TOO hideous, and so long as it doesn't cost too much, well--who cares? (This is understandable, as that is their approach to publishing manga, as well.)
The problem is that there is no free lunch. The winner of this pie fight ends up getting their pocket picked to pay for the pallet loads of remaindered rubbish that get shipped to the landfill. The TP deal seems designed to guarantee that it isn't their bank account that takes the hit for bad choices.
Okay, but what if their heart is really pure and they just want to give lots and lots of starving creators a chance to hit the big time? Then why have these sleazy limits on how much creators can earn? I know how much it costs to publish this stuff. If they want to have the successes feed the failures, well, that's their decision, but they can do that and still reward the successes by doing the exact inverse of what they are doing. In other words, everyone gets paid peanuts out of the gate so as many as possible get their shot. But the more successful you are, the higher your royalties get.
I know this works just fine, because I did it at Studio Proteus. (Of course, I also gave Adam Warren all the copyrights in the Dirty Pair work he did when I sold the rest of my copyrights to Dark Horse, so maybe I'm just a freak.)
My approach with everyone I've worked with--publishers, creators, production folks--has been that we're all in this together. Everyone is guaranteed a minimum so they can keep the pantry full of mac 'n' cheese, but if the book sells well, the royalties go to everyone, with no cap.
Then again, TP sells more pages of manga in one month than I did in my entire career, so what do I know?

Toren, you are a genius.

This is the best post about this that I have seen all day.

I personally don't like to surrender any of my work if I don't see any $ signs and a signed agreement that I retain all rights attached to it.

My work isn't as good as some peoples, but at least it is mine.

I don't read Tokyo Pop. I like Dark Horse's stuff better.

I am working with some artists in Japan to work on a Manga. The artist is very busy so I won't have anything until next year. I am hoping to put the work in the next Comiket. Thats what I like about Japan. You have all these great Amateur artists who do what they love and make money doing it.

I mostly work on Graphic designs for symposiums (IEEE). At least I get my work published. It may not be cool looking. At least I get fed.

nuthin' at all wrong with being fed... not a damned thing

Re: robert dejesus?! no way!

Welcome, welcome. Second that on the creator rights. There are several webcomic creators who were probably thinking the same thing. They have toiled away for a few years and now are probably making mint off of their own merch and advertisers.

Where's my kiss?
I'm the one who kicked over the rock when I said I wouldn't have a book at TP until they gave creators 100% ownership.

And me?

And what of me and footyfoot? We actually walked away from a deal because of ownership issues. Where's to lurve for us, huh? Huh?

(v_^)

Since I'm here to say "Hi Bob, this is Eisu", I might as well tell about the current situation in Malaysian komik scene.

Well, let's see.... Malaysian komik scene... mostly, it consists of freelancing and not much on contracting... usually, in Malaysia, most places would have the whole, "You send it to us, we own your characters" deal, but then, we're also still in the business of, "Send in your original works, we can't have copies only", but, my latest forray with a local magazine called Jom, they're trying out some new business and since their publisher has 25 years of experience, they're trying it out with fruitful success... their deal is, "We get your characters and your original work for 5 years, and then, they're yours again" and they're also in the top dollar payment business and high quality printing, so it's totally the best hand I've ever been dealt with over here.

Used to be horrible with the mag I used to work before, where we send in originals, they own our work and they have the absolute write to bastardize our writing and artwork (i.e, actually using white-outs or editing our original artworks) and even as freelancer, the main head of that magazin wouldn't let me send any comics outside of their company. Hell, they even go so far as to say, "Change your pen-name and your art style if you send artworks to other companies" and they say all this without any binding contract to me! Which means, I can scram whenever I want and when they say that to me (this is 7 maybe 8 months after I sent stuff to them) so no biggie there.

But, in any case, that's how it is with the malaysian comic scene. It's almost as screwed up as the tokyopop deal, except it's not legally binding, so I can scram or whatever without having lawyer's kick down my door the next day. But of course, my current deal is not as screwed up, in fact, it's almost too good.

Welp, hope this helps with your insight in comic industries around the world.

Heya, Eisu! Welcome and thanks for posting. That's quite an eye opener. I wish you well in your newest projects.

Wow! After reading all of this it seems that a big problem in this area of rights, royalities etc. is education. A lot of people are walking in blind and taken whatever is offered. As a writer with a number of book contracts now, I can say that there are a lot of areas to be considered such as publishing rights, subsidiary rights, royalities, copyrights, new or revised editions, "out of print" termination, and even things like copies for the author and/or rights for the author to sell their work themselves (in published form from the publisher and freely provided by the publisher)) and recieve a higher percentage.

If you would like, I would be happy to e-mail you some extracts of these contract points for comparision between written work and what you're dealing with in the art world. It might point out some areas that you haven't considered or identify other areas for profit.

After letting this boil for a while, I'll wade in after the fact and give my devil's advocate opinion.

While retaining complete ownership and control over something you create is preferable, some people may have reasons to justify relinquishing some control. One common complaint in this whole cross-forum discussion is "what if your story hits it big?" While such a thing is possible, these days it's against the odds. This wouldn't be much comfort if you invented the next Pokemon and didn't become a millionaire because you'd given up part of the rights; on the other hand, betting on your creation becoming a phenomenal success is like buying Powerball tickets.

In my case, for whatever reasons, I have not been able to sucessfully "pitch" anything of my own creation to any comics company. (Well, actually, I have, but then the publishers either went out of business or canceled the project. Go me.) I have also not had the finances to do any sort of effective self-publishing.

So, as the years march by and pile up in a heap behind me, the idea of giving up some rights to TokyoPop for the chance to get nationally published and maybe get some money is beginning to look better to me in the face of not getting published at all and getting no money. Holding onto the rights to my creations is all well and good, but 100% ownership of something that doesn't get sold still gets me nothing.

That may sound desperate and sad, but it's one of those calculations we all have to make with our lives. Some folks are more willing to compromise than others. In the unlikely event I would ever be faced with the opportunity to sign a TokyoPop contract, I like to think I would be bright enough to at least be aware of what rights I was signing away, or consult a lawyer if it was too complex for me to follow. That seems to be the key, to me - you have to know that you're about to shake hands with Satan, and not assume that a publisher who likes your stuff is also your friend when it comes to the contracts.

In the end, I doubt this discussion will stem the tide of hopeful artists trying to get their work picked up by TokyoPop, but hopefully they'll at least go over the cliff with the lemmings with open eyes.

I completely understand what you're saying (just wanted to make that clear from the outset ^__^) and in some ways I agree with you, because I was in exactly the same boat...

In the end I refused Tpop's deal to the point that some yahoo from their office verbally berated me about it (this is after physically going down to their office in LA and wanting to hash out the whole thing because it had come to a silly point of 'he said, she said, this that and the other' and nothing was gtting changed or done (8 months of this)... after that happened, i admit i got depressed, because I was very much looing forward to actually 'making it' at least a little bit in this field, and my own book would have been quite a feather in my cap.

After that i bounced around whoring myself to this publisher and that publisher, quitting my day job to better work on folio and project presentations etc (risky I know, especially after i just bought a house in OC CA O_O! dumb!) and figured I'd follow my dreams for one year (foolish no?). I had pretty much the same ewxperience that you had on the publisher front... but it gave me time to consider what it was that i really felt was important -- and honestly at the end of the day, and after much self-mutilation for possibly throwing away a very good deal (despite the 'vaccuum clasue' which anyone who's seen their contracts knows what that is) I found that the 'rights' were the key issue to me.

Right now I'm poised and very excited to be signing up with a new (not new to anyone but to me, professionally) publisher, who is not only supportive and full of truly wonderful, helpful, creators but also is out to actually protect my interest as bvest they can while still flufilling the biz side for themselves, that they logically need to. (Sorry i have to be cryptic, but a formal announcement has not been made yet) will I make as much money as I would have at Tpop, most likely not, there is no advance whatsoever, which of course flies in the face of the 20k$ I was offered per volume of GN... so no I probably won't make as much money, but that said I think I will be very much happier to be with the new publisher (who've I've admired from afar for many years, Rikki and Tavi know who they are and can testify to this ^__^).

I was a tool of Tpop for a whole year, being their cheerleader and moutpiece when they frankly didn't deserve one... nowe the truth is out and I can't side myself with them until they change

...I doubt they will... but I pray i'm wrong

and creators should NEVER give up the rights to their creations, even if they're utter crap... sell them if you want, but don't simply hand them over

Crossposts....

Dunno if this is some sort of hideous violation of LJ etiquette, but I wanted to crosspost a couple of comments I made at Lea's LJ.

First, regarding the TP business model:

TP is just taking its cue from the music biz:
"The band is now 1/4 of the way through its contract, has made the music industry more than 3 million dollars richer, but is in the hole $14,000 on royalties. The band members have each earned about 1/3 as much as they would working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a tour bus for a month. The next album will be about the same, except that the record company will insist they spend more time and money on it. Since the previous one never "recouped," the band will have no leverage, and will oblige. The next tour will be about the same, except the merchandising advance will have already been paid, and the band, strangely enough, won't have earned any royalties from their T-shirts yet. Maybe the T-shirt guys have figured out how to count money like record company guys. Some of your friends are probably already this fucked."
Read the rest at:
http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

Second, a quote from Bill Watterson:

I was reading the new Calvin and Hobbes collection today, and there was a timely quote in the introduction by Watterson. Some of the "happy camper" TP OEL manga creators should read this:

"Over the years, I've come to realize that it's almost impossible to make anyone understand why, five years into the culmination of my life's dreams, I was ready to quit the strip and lose everything rather than get appallingly rich off Calvin and Hobbes products. All I can say is, I worked too long to get this job, and worked too hard once I got it, to let other people run away with my creation once it became successful. If I could not control what my own work was about and stood for, then cartooning meant very little to me."
--Bill Watterson, introduction to The Complete Calvin and Hobbes (2005)

Re: Crossposts....

Oooh, great new entry at Elin's LJ...the part about the math will resonate with anyone who read the Albini essay.

Do The Math